In this episode of the On-Farm Trials podcast, join the conversation between Grower Chris Williams and USDA-ARS Researchers Dr. Dan Long, and Dr. Stewart Wuest as they discuss their collaborative work using combine-mounted protein monitors on Chris’s farm outside of Athena, OR. Chris, Dan, and Stewart describe the what, why, and how of leveraging this ‘new’ precision technology in useful and usable ways including to map nitrogen use efficiency across the field, gain a greater understanding of how wheat responds to applied nitrogen, and how that information can translate into management decisions on the farm.
Carol McFarland
Today we’re with Chris Williams.
Chris Williams
Hello.
Carol McFarland
Dr. Dan Long.
Dr. Dan Long
Hi.
Carol McFarland
And Dr. Stewart Wuest.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Happy to be here.
Carol McFarland
Both of our scientists, Dr. Dan Long and Dr. Stewart Wuest of the USDA ARS. We’re outside of Athena, Oregon, on Chris’s farm, W4 Farming and looking forward to talking more about on farm trials as research collaborations and answering questions important to innovation in our region’s cropping system. Welcome to the podcast you all.
Thank you. Thank you.
Carol McFarland
So let’s start out, by hearing a little bit about yourself, Chris, who you farm with and more about your farm and your farming conditions here in Athena.
Chris Williams
Sure. Sure. Thank you. So I actually do not come off of a farm. My family did not farm, but I had the opportunity to take over from a homesteading family here in the Athena area. The Jon’s family was very gracious to recruit me when they didn’t have any children coming home to farm. And so my wife and I have operated the farm for four years now. And prior to that, I worked for the farm for twelve years. Before that, I was in ag retail, and I’m a graduate of Oregon State University. Go Pac-2!
Carol McFarland
Oh, excellent. Can you talk a little bit more about the farm, your soil, your precipitation?
Chris Williams
Sure.
Carol McFarland
Your kind of standard crop rotation.
Chris Williams
Yeah. So, I farm from a fourteen to about a twenty inch rainfall. We’re here in the Blue Mountains, so the closer you get to the foothills, the more precipitation you pick up. We are mostly annual crop. Green peas are a big deal in our region. And so we grow and harvest fresh green peas. That’s a big staple on a rotation course. Winter wheat anchors the other side. We grow a little bit of spring barley. Some dry peas, and whatever else happens to make money that year, we are direct seed. We’ve been direct seed since two-thousand eleven, and we feel that we’ve seen a lot of gains in that in soil health and also yields, and weathering stress and drought because of those practices. Of course, you know, genetic innovations in breeding have made a huge difference to advances in fertility and weed control. I have a crew of three full time guys and hire more help for harvest in the summer.
Carol McFarland
Great. Thanks so much for that. And it’s really interesting to hear a little bit about kind of an alternative farm succession plan, and also the transition of the farm to direct seed that it sounds like you were probably also a part of.
Chris Williams
Yes.
Carol McFarland
But maybe not as the owner operator lens at that time.
Chris Williams
Correct.
Carol McFarland
That’s great. Well, looking forward to hearing a little bit more about that as the conversation unfolds. Let’s shift over to our scientists. Dan, would you like to talk a little bit more about your background and what brings you onto the farm today?
Dr. Dan Long
My background extends back to dry land wheat production systems in northern Montana. And in nineteen-ninety-three, I got started with an interest in protein mapping. And in those days we had yield monitors, but we did not have protein sensors on combines. So I spent a lot of time riding in the bulk tank of a combine, pulling grain samples and for later laboratory analysis and then indexing those samples back to their field location. And it was interesting to discover that just like their spatial variability yield, their spatial variability in protein across fields that has particular meaning, in particular, with regard to soil fertility. And so that’s always been an interest of mine, beginning in my early days in Montana and then, coming and into northeastern Oregon in two-thousand four, bringing that interest with me and continuing to pursue it here.
Carol McFarland
Excellent. Now, did you say that you came into northeastern Oregon under the umbrella of the USDA ARS?
Dr. Dan Long
Yes, I, I was hired, I was hired into the research unit in Pendleton to be their research agronomist.
Carol McFarland
Excellent. Thanks so much. And, Stewart, would you share a little bit more about your background, what brings you to the farm today, and your research interests?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Yeah, sure. My research interest has always had to do with soils and soil management. I first wanted to understand that at the time I came in nineteen-ninety seven, we were still kind of struggling with no till, it seemed like we weren’t getting the stands we wanted. People question whether it was yielding as well. And so I started looking at the effects of tillage and residue management on down establishment on water, and then really continued looking at water. What is it about no till that reduced runoff and completely, actually completely, halted soil erosion? How does that work? What was different? And so investigated that for about ten years. And then I started getting into evaporation. So, looking at summer fallow practices because there’s still a lot of tillage in summer fallow here. And I wanted to know what would be the minimum tillage a person could do so they can get the benefits of reduced tillage and still get their crop up in time. And so, that’s what I was doing. But I was always watching Dan, working on his protein projects. And we’re realizing that now with the, with the availability of protein monitors and reasonably price attractive, what people didn’t know how to then translate that protein mapping into a real, nitrogen map in combination with their yields. And so when Dan retired, I thought, you know, we gotta get this, got to get this together, got to get this completed. So the farmers have turnkey, materials, turnkey tools, so that they can know exactly what to do with them and the data all gets handled, and they don’t have to spend hours and hours on a computer. And so that’s what that’s what we’re working on right now.
Carol McFarland
Ooh, that’s so exciting. And I love those. Well, I like the pretty color maps actually, that those protein monitors seem to, to put out there. They’re quite captivating to watch in the combine. So let’s hear more about this project. I’m assuming you’ve made plenty of pretty color maps. But yeah, let’s, what’s your interest in it, Chris?
Chris Williams
Well, I think for me. So this farm’s been doing variable rate nitrogen for more than fifteen years, but we never really had a way to measure whether our zones were effective. Were we over fertilizing some areas? Were we under fertilizing? You know, yield maps don’t really tell you that story. And so this really intrigued me as sort of the progression in nitrogen management of really a good metric to manage, you know, how well are we doing.
Carol McFarland
So I feel like I should ask you, because I think many of us know that there’s different classes of wheat, and each class of wheat has its own target protein requirements. So how does that interplay with the protein monitor? Because, you know, like, oh hard red wheat you want lots of protein, but then what is the protein really measuring especially with different classes of wheat?
Dr. Dan Long
For no matter what the wheat class is, there and then the grain has protein concentration and the interest there is on what that means with regard to soil nitrogen fertility. The rationale is that the crop is, as a bioindicator of soil conditions within the roots. And so since we can map protein across the landscape, there’s an opportunity to apply that information into nitrogen management. And that’s particularly important in dryland farm landscapes because, you know, nitrogen is probably the most managed input. And these days it’s a considerable cost. We don’t have techniques that are available in the Midwestern crops like corn and soybeans to understand how nitrogen varies within these landscapes. We can grid soil samples, but that’s very expensive. Protein is a good approach at that, because we can easily measure protein, collect hundreds and thousands of observations across the landscape to characterize that spatial variability. So why not try to apply that as a source of information that we can use in combination. So testing to get a better idea as to how to manage the notion that we apply.
Carol McFarland
As a quick aside, what is your main class of wheat here?
Chris Williams
I primarily grow soft white.
Carol McFarland
Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. Now I want to go back to you, Dan, just for a quick overview of how does a protein monitor work? Because I heard you talking about going into the combine bulk tank and collecting a bunch of data and as a researcher, I have a really big appreciation for, you know, each dot on those graphs that we maybe show synthesizing our data, like how many person hours really went into each one. And so how does the protein monitor work to kind of help alleviate all of those?
Dr. Dan Long
Well, they’re essentially just a ruggedized, near-infrared analyzer. That technologies have been around for years. It’s used commonly at the state grain labs and the grain elevators to quickly produce a measurement of the protein concentration on the grain. We’re using light for spectroscopy to determine the protein concentration. And so without getting into the chemical aspects of that, the chemometrics of that technique, it’s essentially, we’ve ruggedized the technology so that we can, it can operate on in the harsh conditions that we find onboard combines. And it has taken many years to perfect the technology so that we can produce reliable measurements. So we’ve achieved that, in this day and age. So we’ve connected these measurements with the Global Positioning System so that we can produce these maps much in the same way that we can do the same with yield, grain yield.
Carol McFarland
Okay, great. So basically it’s a little kind of eyeball thing that they use at the grain elevator. And then on the fly, each grain just goes flying past it. And that’s kind of the operation.
Dr. Dan Long
Right. There’s two, there’s two, principles of observation. One is of operation. One is the reflectance instrument. It’s just bouncing light off the grain. The reflected light contains information about the protein concentration. And then there’s light that’s transmitted through the grain, and that’s a transmittance instrument that’s currently for sale these days. And that requires a sampling mechanism that holds the grain for about ten seconds, collects a number of measurements that’s averaged to produce the number that’s recorded on the combine. And so, the data collection reads about once every ten seconds and with, you know, over the course of harvesting all day long that amounts to thousands of observations across the farm field.
Carol McFarland
Great. There’s so many questions. Let’s talk a little bit about how did this collaboration get started?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Well, I just thought this is something that we’re only a couple of years of research away from making possible and a lot of growers are interested. If we’re going to do anything it would be getting more grain for every pound of fertilizer. And so I saw a lot of reasons why this would be attractive. And, since Dan was willing to come back out of retirement and work part time on this, and Chris was willing to give us data from all of his fields for five years in a row, I thought, this has got to happen. We gotta make this work.
Carol McFarland
Didn’t you say something like, a parking lot meetup?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Yeah, well, I’d been thinking about it for a long time, and then Chris was on our liaison committee and so he was leaving, and I thought, I wonder how many combines he runs because he’s got an operation that, that is, I really enjoy watching. And he’s capable and he’s been more than capable. So, yeah, I was in the parking lot where I said, you know, hey, let’s just ask somebody.
Carol McFarland
That’s great. Because, you know, there’s not really a farmer researcher meetup site or anything like that. So, and it sounds like you welcomed that invitation.
Chris Williams
Absolutely. I love the opportunity to collaborate with researchers when I can.
Carol McFarland
Great. Do you do a lot of other collaborations as well?
Chris Williams
Yeah, I’ve got a few others. We host a variety trial for the McGregor company. We have a site for the OSU spring cereal variety trial. I have another project with Nicole Durfee on soil moisture. In the past, I worked last year with OSU scientists Judit Barroso on a post-harvest weed control project, and also with Francisco Calderon on a nutricia trial.
Carol McFarland
Oh, so you’re what they call a glutton for punishment.
Chris Williams
I am.
Carol McFarland
Speaking on behalf of the research community, which is, of course, taking a big liberty, but, you know, really appreciate growers, like yourself who engage with the research community. It’s a really invaluable part of being able to translate, you know, ideas and data from scientists into that real world applied space. So, thank you very much for your participation, not only today, but, it sounds like across the board. So it sounds, Stewart, like you and Dan originated the question about how to get the kind of turnkey solution and really adapt it to this environment. So, so what other kinds of, so can you clarify what your primary research question is? And then if you have some other secondary research questions and goals that you’re trying to answer with this project.
Dr. Dan Long
Well, we’re, we’re interested in knowing how does wheat respond to applied nitrogen. And so we’re looking at relationships between grain yield and nitrogen, between protein and nitrogen, and protein and grain yield. And so those relationships are worked out mathematically. And so the first thing, the first thing we wanted to know is in using protein as an index of fertility is there something about the protein that is important to understand? So from, from work in Montana and other areas of the great Great Plains, it was revealed that there’s a critical protein level, below which nitrogen was likely deficient for yield. And so the first question we wanted to answer is what is that level? And it’s been determined from, both in spring soft white and winter soft white, that the critical level was eleven point seven percent protein, which is equivalent to about ten point three percent at a twelve percent moisture basis, which is very close to that ten point five percent market level, which is preferred by by buyers overseas for soft white winter. So that was the first thing we wanted to ask. That was the first question that we answered: where is that critical level? So when you look at a protein map, you can see well, where did the levels fall below that critical level? Those are areas of the field where it’s likely nitrogen was likely deficient for yield. And you’re leaving yield in the field. So it becomes a post-harvest assessment. You’re looking back, you know, at the grain season to assess where in the future you can improve yield by applying more nitrogen. At the same time, you see the protein that’s well above that ten point five or ten point three percent market level you can likely relax the nitrogen levels and reduce your costs. Your input costs for nitrogen. So that was the first question to answer.
Carol McFarland
Thank you for sharing your primary research question. Do you have some other kind of secondary, or you know, what’s kind of spun out of it since then?
Dr. Dan Long
Well, the other question is how much nitrogen should you apply to improve protein levels in a future crop to reach the desired target level? And we’ve determined that in this growing environment in the Pacific Northwest, where we have these long prolonged hot summers, it’s a very harsh grain environment. And so we need more nitrogen to increase, the unit, a unit percentage in the wheat up to seventy pounds of nitrogen per acre is necessary to apply to improve protein. And so, that was the other question. If you want to increase the protein level, then how much nitrogen should you apply? That was the second question we wanted to answer. So that’s— beyond that it’s largely looking at the yield variability, the variability in the protein and yield. What does that mean in terms of underlying biophysical factors in the soil, in the landscape that are important to manage for in your nitrogen management program?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Just by way of explanation, I might add, a phenomenon we haven’t talked about yet, but it was well established by Herb March who basically pioneered on his own with, with some of Dan’s help. He was doing this, many years ago, but he found that in shallow soils that he wouldn’t get any yield. And he was getting lush green growth for a while, but then it would run out of water. And so he he was very pleased to find out that when he was monitoring his protein content and understanding where, the, the crop was getting much more protein, much more nitrogen and taking out much more nitrogen than it needed and getting those super high proteins that if he he cut down on how much nitrogen he put on, he would actually start getting yields in those shallow spots because it wasn’t being over fertilized. So what he was looking for was in his fields where it varied in soil depth, he was looking to see a uniform protein and then he knew he was getting a maximum yield. And so, it’s pretty interesting that you can take an area of the field that has very shallow soils and start getting yields off of them when you couldn’t before because you were applying your nitrogen uniform and you weren’t sure how much to cut it back.
Carol McFarland
Thank you for sharing that. I know one of the things as we think about the kind of cropping systems resilience, that evenness across the field is a more optimum goal to go for. Chris, I’m imagining you sitting in the combine and you’re watching the pretty maps as the grain is kind of flying under this NIR eyeball. And so what are your research questions and what’s your response to the information and what are your management goals that make you curious about this technology?
Chris Williams
Great question. So I think, you know, one of the things I think about are how how are changes we’re making the system in one year impacting the next year? You know? Because there are some legacy effects. And then when you’ve got, say, one variable rate prescription and then you look at the data from the next harvest, how do you analyze those on top of each other to say, you know, what I did in this area made this impact. Now what change do I need to make next year? And the only thing we’ve come back to is you can’t throw out soil testing, you know, it’s gotta be— you still have to do soil testing, especially in, you know, you know, more than just a mono crop rotation. I think in my— I do have some higher elevation continuous wheat. Yet it makes me feel better to soil test, but that’s probably the area you could get away because I think we can pretty precisely track the nitrogen removal in that system. But when you start putting legumes and that sort of thing in, you really need to be able to dial in that credit, you know, with what they’ve put back in the system. So I think it’s those long term effects and I expect at some point we’re going to get to a map that just works for maintenance. We’re not there yet, we’re just two years in. But that’s my goal is to be able to get to a maintenance level map and just adjust for yield variation year over year.
Carol McFarland
Great. I guess one of the things I’ve heard, both on the podcast here and off, is kind of a question around some of the very generalized and historic agronomic nitrogen data. The recommended X amount of nitrogen per year per pound of predicted yield. And so, an interest in re-investigating that, but that might look a little bit different than it did the first time around. How does this technology influence that? I think we’ve started talking about that. But do you have a response to that?
Dr. Dan Long
Well, I, I just maybe to add to your comments, the wheat breeders have brought us high yielding cultivars and, you know, yields are going up year to year. And that means that indigenous soil nitrogen levels are going down because of higher yields. You’re getting more extraction. And we’re lowering and we’re actually lowering the fertility of our soils in the process of doing that. That so brings, and brings the importance of nitrogen fertilizers to fill that gap as we go, as we ever more as we go into the future with these high yielding crops. And so it just brings in the importance of, of best efficiency and best utilization from the nitrogen that we apply. And so, ultimately, what we’re trying to do with protein is we’re trying to establish a method for farmers so they could fall back on, to better manage their nitrogen, to maintain, as Chris mentions, maintain their nitrogen levels. So if we’re applying nitrogen fertilizer, we want to do that in the most efficient way possible. And one way of doing that is through precision nitrogen management techniques that take account for spatial and temporal variability of nitrogen levels going up and down from year to year, and from side to side within fields.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
And we’re still going to have, well, actually, what we’re moving toward is actually having better prediction of yield. So if you have a formula that says your predicted yield, how much nitrogen you should put on for that, what we want is for each part of the field to understand what the maximum yield can be if you don’t put on too much and you don’t put on too little nitrogen. You’re still going to not be able to predict how much rainfall you’re going to get that year.
Carol McFarland
Too bad.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
But at least at least you’ll have, parts of the field where where you, you kind of know you’ll never get more than forty bushels and other places where, you know, you could get a hundred thirty bushels and you know, where those are. So that’s what our map should eventually get us to, is that we actually know what our predicted yield might be, or the range might be.
Carol McFarland
From a soils perspective, my understanding is also that it’s likely that nitrogen is cycling a little bit different depending on, your tillage system and so it seems like maybe with tools like this we’re able to kind of customize, not only at the zone level, but really from farm to farm, based on the management and of course, field, the field and much more granular, customized way.
Chris Williams
Yeah. I would agree that this really provides a measurement that is unique to each farm and their system, their tillage, their fertility practices. To really have your own independent measure and dial in that, that nitrogen requirement, really specifically for each piece of ground and each I mean, even tighter than that, each subunit in that field.
Carol McFarland
I wonder how the crop insurance does with that.
Chris Williams
Generally, as long as you’re following, you know, university or ARS backed practices, then, you know, you’ve shown that you’ve done your due diligence raising that crop.
Dr. Dan Long
So, you know, we should probably add that soil testing is still going to be an important practice here. And I believed for the a longest time, that protein itself could— was a good indicator of conditions in the, in the roots zone. But I, I’ve moderated my view in that and thinking that that probably applies to additions and fields where you have these stark differences like deep versus shallow soils. And those differences will persist from year to year in our dry environment. But we are seeing conditions, growing conditions now that seem to be more extreme and where it’s kind of setting us up for leaching events that can change for tilling conditions, especially as you go through a fourteen month fallow period. You know, because protein is essentially, it’s a post harvest indicator, and we’re trying to fertilize for the next season. So if you’re going across the fourteen month fallow period and you end up with a starting leaching event, the conditions that set up the protein for the and in the past year are not going to be the same for the future year that’s coming up. So we’ve got to learn how to incorporate soil testing. You know pre-plant soil testing to to provide a better picture than just protein alone. And that’s that’s another question that we’re working on here too.
Carol McFarland
All right. So what’s your favorite soil testing protocol? What do you look for in a good soil testing methodology?
Dr. Dan Long
It’s probably just something that’s based on a standard laboratory technique. Was it potassium acetate extraction?
It’s going to be probably finding benchmark sites within your field, and sampling those repeatedly from year to year prior to seeding to establish, the you know, the trends that are occurring within that soil. Like, you don’t necessarily have to take as many soil samples as you might have had in the past if you’ve got a protein map, because that’s going to help direct where to sample within that field.
Carol McFarland
Yeah, it seems like it’s a really good opportunity for more targeted zone sampling from the soil testing. Dan, you commented on just being able to identify those underlying abiotic biophysical factors, and be able to investigate those a little bit deeper, though. I think that actually, from what I’ve seen from farmers, is that many, many folks just can, like, see it out of the tractor window and they don’t actually need the pretty color map to be like, oh, that’s not that’s not a great spot. But there’s something going on there.
Chris Williams
Sometimes those rocks sitting on the top give it away.
Carol McFarland
Fair enough. But then there’s just weird patches to look at. And they’re real scratchers. Is it like, oh, is it a pathogen? Is it nutrient? Is it pH? Like, what’s going on there? All right. Well, let’s circle back a little bit. Can you talk a little bit more, about in this case, it sounds like maybe, Chris, you got the technology installed on your combine, and you’re kind of farming business as usual. But can we talk a little bit more about the way the study is set up, and how the operations are distributed? Do you guys just throw it out here driving the combine, collecting data.
Chris Williams
No the nice thing about these systems is that it’s completely integrated to what I’m already doing. And, so just like we’re collecting yield data without really thinking about it, we’re collecting protein data with really a push of a couple of buttons. And, you know, after the initial calibration when they are installed and just and just a reference check during the season to make sure where I run two machines in the same field that they are reporting similarly. It’s really, it doesn’t it doesn’t take too much effort, above what we’re already doing in the harvest operation. And then whether you want to do it during the day, at the end of the week, at the end of the season, we upload the information to the cloud. And, there are some tools where you can look and get your report card. Basically.
Carol McFarland
Are you comfortable sharing a little bit more about what the end use process kind of looks like?
So when you pull the data off, I know sometimes I even like that the like, yes, we’ve got all this data now we have to like actually make meaning out of that. So what does that process look like for you so far? And then how much do you guys work together on that at this point?
Chris Williams
Great. Well, I’ll speak to the first year and then I’m going to let Dan speak to what we did last year. So the first year we were, we were just getting going. Dan was still working on his calculations for critical, nitrogen values and that sort of thing. So I used the crop scan software to create my first variable rate maps, based on the first year data for the fields that are in continuous winter wheat. I’ve got a handful of fields that are in continuous winter wheat. So I use the crop scan data. We pushed in my yield data from the John Deere operation system. And it’s got the ability to analyze that. And so I just set a target reference. It was a dry year and we had very high proteins. And so I had to kind of put some artificial targets in realizing that just because something didn’t make more than ten, ten point five percent protein and twenty-three doesn’t mean it was over fertilized on an average year. Right? So I moved my targets up for that first year, used the crop scan software to create my zones, went out soil tested, came up with my recommendations based on, you know, how I would have traditionally. And, we’re off to year two. This last year, Dan played a big role in analyzing data science, so I’ll let him speak to that.
Dr. Dan Long
Well, I took a conservative approach. I didn’t want to risk the farm.
Carol McFarland
Nobody does.
Dr. Dan Long
Nobody does. So my approach is very simple. I just simply produced class maps. Both yield and protein, and then combine them to produce a map showing four classes. So the first class was low yield and low protein. Second class was low yield and high protein. A third was high yield and low protein, and a fourth class was high yield and high protein. Four classes with the cut offs between protein around the critical level. So if you had anywhere in the field that was low below the critical protein level, it was likely deficient, and as opposed to the opposite. And then, Chris, used those own maps to determine where to sample within his fields, his soils and tests for nitrogen. And then we used, Chris used a conventional, nitrogen recommendation method, probably from the university, to determine what the recommendation would be, what he should apply. And then he had the ability to set his, his, task controller on the tractor to apply those rates as he incorporated that control map in his controller on the tractor. Does that sound right, Chris?
Chris Williams
Yep, yep.
Carol McFarland
Okay, so now I have to actually back up a little bit and ask, how it was to install these tools into and interface with your combine, what was that process like?
Chris Williams
Well, Ag Enterprise up in Cheney is a dealer for the crop scan system, and they were wonderful to come down and install on the equipment. It was honestly turnkey for us.
Carol McFarland
Great. Hey, that’s a wonderful service.
Chris Williams
Yeah, it was fantastic. You farmers really are the stars. But also it’s really great to have the support, supportive ag community working together.
Chris Williams
Absolutely.
Carol McFarland
Toward finding a way forward with some of these things. So, that’s great. Thanks. So I actually I was waiting for some sort of, like, legacy, you know oh, there was this, like, crazy plywood box I had, like, percussive maintenance a few times. There were gremlins in my combine. So just from a best practice standpoint, I think about good calibrations of yield monitors and how that correlates with protein and what are some of the best practices around that.
Chris Williams
So when during the installation phase, Dan provided a number of samples that he had measured the protein in the lab on, and so they were actually able to pour those through the instrument to get some reference readings. And then once we hit the field, we tweaked the bias in the, in the displays to make sure that they were close to the elevator readings that we were getting and that the two machines were giving us the same output.
Carol McFarland
Yeah. That’s so being able to calibrate your machines together as well. It’s nice that you have the equipment on both of your combines, too. I guess I’m curious what that might look like if somebody decided to buy one crop scan, but they were running two.
Dr. Dan Long
So you’d have to do a lot of extrapolation to fill in those blanks in the field. I think it’s doable. Just actually, you know, you’d have fifty percent accuracy.
Carol McFarland
Yeah. Maybe some choreography on your harvest. Patterns too. So we’ve been talking about the data that’s been collected in this. I think we’ve talked a little bit already about what data is most important to each of you and why. But maybe, if you guys could take a minute and expand a little bit around why this data matters to you.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
So I’ll point out one thing, just for starters, that we haven’t talked about yet, and that is that not everybody in the world grows soft white wheat. And so the company that sells the protein monitors and, you know did a lot of work in Australia, and, so their conditions and the wheat they’re growing and the protein targets they have are quite different. So so that’s one of the reasons why we needed to produce some data because we knew that even when the companies got up to speed and had everything turnkey and ready to go, they wouldn’t really know how to fertilize the wheat that we want to grow. And so that’s an important product that we’re producing here.
Carol McFarland
The regionally relevant calibrations.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
That will work for growers here.
Carol McFarland
Okay. Thank you.
Chris Williams
Obviously nitrogen equates to expense dollars right on a farm and fertilizers, you know one of our big ticket items. And so making the biggest impact out of it. You know, making sure places, putting it in places in the field or will get the biggest return and not wasting it on those areas where we’re not. I think that’s a pretty big deal. And also maintaining our consistent market quality. You know, we’ve had two years out of the last four where we’ve had drought and we’ve seen some discounts for high protein in the market. And so trying to avoid those situations, however, we can help it while still making sure to get our maximum economic yield is key.
Dr. Dan Long
Well, yeah, the importance of the data from a research standpoint, I think mirrors the importance that we put to our customers that we’re interested in seeing that this stays in operation. And for that reason, one important research question is the economic and environmental benefits that come from it. However, the type of research that we’re doing is not experimental. We’re actually— we’re not trying to control for non experimental factors as we would in a small plot experiment. In other words, we’re, we’re simply observing and measuring these variables, these factors as we go across the landscape using the combine as a mobile platform that we mount sensors to, we can collect data to characterize these landscapes. So from the biophysical side, it’s still important to understand how, you know, what factors in the environment are exerting control over the crop, and which of those factors are consistent from year to year, as opposed to which ones are- vary randomly in time and space. Trying to sort those things out are important to farm management. And that’s another area where I think science can help. Using this as a research tool opens up new avenues for research. And so that’s a real opportunity for both parties.
Carol McFarland
Oh yeah. Absolutely. I’m kind of curious, Chris, if you have some of your own research questions going on your farm, if you try a little bit of this here, a little bit of that, there, but it actually seems like, these protein monitors, especially combined with the yield monitors, can really give a lot of,opportunity even for, characterizing strip trials that are just kind of like, oh, does this product work? How much does it work? Just helping in that process of asking and answering questions on the farm and getting meaningful results? It just seems like another tool in that toolbox.
Chris Williams
Absolutely. There’s always, you know, we’re always inundated with new ideas, new products, and we’ve got to be able to sift through strategically, do those work or not. And I think one example is I’ve got a trial with magnesium out, in the winter wheat this year. And I think this will be key in helping to quantify whether we’ll get a response or not.
Carol McFarland
Great. Well, yeah. It seems like there’s actually a lot of cofactors that go along with nitrogen. It’s not just like more nitrogen. There’s like many other, of the micronutrients and just other plant nutrients that coexist to help nitrogen perform better in the plant to whether that’s uptake or translocation, I think a lot about pH and like, is that more available in the soil because of whatever management, you know, how is that nitrogen availability in the soil performing?
Chris Williams
Absolutely
Dr. Dan Long
Well, the other source of information that could be put into this is that Chris is also recording as applied. He actually records the amount of fertilizer that went down from site to site within the field so his system allows him to do that. So if we combine that with the amount of nitrogen removed by the crop, and we can calculate that by— through the protein in the yield, we can calculate the actual nitrogen that’s been exported from the field. We take the ratio of the amount that’s been applied versus the amount that’s removed. We come up with a measure of fertilizer use efficiency across that field, which is another source of useful information for the farmer.
Carol McFarland
Absolutely. Well, I know you kind of characterize that. You know, we’re looking for both economic and environmental gains and that absolutely, that fertilizer use efficiency is right, right in that sweet spot, isn’t it? You mentioned that this project has been going for two years, and I thought we heard the term five years. But do you want to talk more about how long you are hoping to run this level of research on this tool and how you see the project evolving over time?
Dr. Dan Long
Well, I’m seventy-two and I have just about reached the end of my research career, and I’d like to see the work passed on to someone else. I think it would help producers meet some of the challenges they face going forward. Government regulations, environmental conditions, you know, extreme weather, consumer preferences, rising input costs and unreliable supply chains. That’s essentially where this work might help with.
Carol McFarland
Stewart, do you have any favorite ways you might see the project evolving or adding layers to it over time?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
I’ll just be really happy to, when we were able to, explain to growers what they need to buy, who they need to work with, and also inform the companies that are, that are, producing the protein monitors, inform them of what they need to deliver as seamlessly as possible to the growers so that they can implement this. And there will be some questions further research questions. There always are. One thing leads to another, but what’s the philosophy for your nitrogen replacing what was taken out? Make your soil bank a little richer in nitrogen. Just, put on just enough each year. Put on extra, you know, all those questions will come up, but at least we’ll be far, far ahead in getting the nitrogen in the different places in the field and the different amounts that need.
Carol McFarland
Great. Thanks. So how does this farm experiment complement the rest of your research portfolio? Stewart?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Well, I, I basically jumped into it because I saw it as an opportunity that should not be missed. We were able to scrape together funds to do this, and I was able to get Dan to stay on. Seventy-two isn’t very old, by the way. My research is really in different areas, still, but this was just to get an opportunity.
Carol McFarland
It’s very cropping systems oriented. So it seems to be one of your purviews for the soil and cropping systems interface. Do you want to talk briefly about some of the other other projects? How this might translate into some of the other work you do and the tool.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Yeah. Well, Chris has talked about his change in farming to no till, and I’ve been comparing no till to a very minimum till. And I still see even though I’m doing extremely minimal till, I see differences in yield improvements with, with no till and it’s, it’s, it’s very, very resilient to weather conditions. Seems to— the crop seems to be a little healthier when we go through these spring drought periods. So that’s one thing I’m trying to tackle right now. I want to understand that so that we can take advantage of it. And I like it when we understand something well enough, we can take it to pieces and decide what we can mess with and what we got to leave the same. So that’s one of my number one projects is investigating the yield potential advantage in no till.
Carol McFarland
Great. I think kind of going back to the more customized nitrogen recommendation piece, across you know, with your cropping system and how maybe some of those historic recommendations didn’t consider, being in no till for ten years, twenty years. However many you know, we it we’re kind of having quite the legacy of no till farming systems at this point. And I think it’s well understood that at least to the point that nitrogen is cycling differently, and being used differently in those cropping systems. So it’s interesting to have a tool to look at those more customized outcomes. Have you seen any benefits or unintended consequences or lessons learned so far from trying this new technology? And you know what I mean by unintended consequences,
Chris Williams
Things that went wrong.
Carol McFarland
Things to learn from.
Chris Williams
Yeah. Well, I think one of the interesting things I learned, I had a field in twenty-twenty-three which, like I said, was a drought year high in protein. And I found an under fertilize zone in higher production field that year. And so I think we’re just learning more about the infield variability. And I think that it’s just one of the keys to unlocking more potential in the same acre. The last I checked, they’re not making any more ground to farm. And, so I think we’re going to have to be more efficient with the land that we do have. So far, we haven’t. I haven’t found any unintended consequences. But like I said, we’re just two years in.
Carol McFarland
We’ve talked quite a bit about using this technology in wheat, wondering what that looks like— because I’m sure you use your combines with the protein monitor on, on it in some of your other crops, like how does it perform? Does it give useful information when you run it through other crops?
Chris Williams
So I have collected data on barley. That would be the only other crop at this point that I’ve got data on. And I think you could see the variations in the field, but we haven’t spent the time calibrating it for the other crops yet. So that’s probably the next step to really dial that in.
Carol McFarland
Okay.
Dr. Dan Long
So the technology is capable with proper calibration of measuring moisture content, carbohydrate, and oil content in addition to protein.
Carol McFarland
Okay. So that might be useful across pulses, oilseeds
All guests
Right, yes, absolutely
Carol McFarland
Oh you guys are really nodding. None of the listeners can see you guys nodding, but you got really excited when I talked about potential other uses besides wheat. Do you guys want to take a minute and elaborate on where you’d like?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Just looks like a lot of work to me. Yeah, to figure all that out. But, but people who want to dedicate themselves to understanding canola and oil production and stuff like that, you know, they’ve got instruments that will do that.
Dr. Dan Long
We’ve used it to measure oil concentration and canola here near Chris’s farm in the recent past. And the idea was to measure the variation in oil concentration so that when you brought the grain into the processors, they would understand how they might adjust their choke setting on a cold press to maximize meal and oil. That was the idea behind that. In the case of corn, there’s a premium on starch. And so in that situation it’s a carbohydrate content that variation may be important in milling, and understanding that variation is important to somebody who runs an elevator or a baker or a miller. So there’s, there’s something analogous with every part of the industry, a crop production industry. It’s not just wheat where this technology might pass.
Carol McFarland
Would you each describe the potential benefits of on-farm experimentation and these collaborations to both farmers and researchers? Chris, do you want to start since you are a glutton for punishment and you work with many different people?
Chris Williams
Right. And I think that the potential to explore things that you’re interested in, with somebody with the scientific background and training, because they’re going to bring a different perspective, they’re going to bring some analytical tools and help you answer a question that’s important for your farm and your conditions and your farming practices. And so I think that anybody that has the opportunity should welcome that.
Dr. Dan Long
For me, most of our basic understanding of crop responds to applied nitrogen, for example, comes from empirical measurements and small plot experiments. So working partnering with Chris and other farmers and working on the farm allows us to test those relationships. And in the world of farming, and that in itself is very important. We don’t, we tend to confine ourselves to the experiment stations. And being able to work on a farm opens up an entirely new horizon.
Carol McFarland
Gotta love field scale research.
Dr. Dan Long
As far as the challenges of that, you know, patience is an important virtue of both parties. So it’s very important that each partner understands the other’s priorities. Chris still absolutely understands what challenges researchers are up against. And and it’s important for the researchers just to understand the world of farming well enough that they understand what a farmer’s priorities are and that we yield to that.
Carol McFarland
Thanks. Yeah, those are words to live by.
Dr. Dan Long
So, you know, as far as I would say beyond that, we’ve been developing a mapping editing software for yield and protein data. And Chris has provided some comments in our discussions that have been very insightful, particularly with regard to the format of exported shapefiles. And every farmer knows what a shapefile is because, that’s what that’s what they’re using primarily to control the application rates across the farm fields. So, you know, fields have margins, they call field boundaries. And so it’s important that the shapefiles fit those boundaries. And so we’ve learned that the software needs to take that into consideration. Square cells are just as workable as polygons in terms of farming management and zones. And consideration needs to be given to different manufacturers, software that control the task controllers. So that’s been very helpful to pick up on that information. Wouldn’t have it otherwise if we weren’t working with a farmer.
Carol McFarland
Yeah, that sounds really key to make, not only to make useful and usable research, to really get that out into the world.
Chris Williams
And I think that that usable is key. Years before, several years before Stewart approached me to partner on this project, Dan recruited me for a test group of a prior version of this software, this editing software. And after about a half a day of going through all the steps that it took to manipulate the data, I decided that it would take a computer science degree and all winter to process the data that was, you know, generated, in that fashion. And so I think that was sort of an earlier precursor to the work we’re doing now where really we hope that any farmer could take, you know, a flash drive with his yield data and a flash drive with this protein data and have a software that will help them actually make management decisions quickly, and painlessly, we hope, you know, in a few short minutes.
Carol McFarland
Have you guys gotten there yet?
Dr. Dan Long
Never.
Carol McFarland
Just just quick and easy management decisions for the farmers, for everything on the farm was. That’s the goal, isn’t it?That’s going to be a journey, but that’s great. Stewart, I’m going to bounce that question back to you about the potential benefits and maybe some challenges of doing this kind of on-farm experimentation and collaboration with farmers and researchers.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Well, when I first came to the place, what I did was on farm testing, and I loved it. I learned so much working with the growers. But it is difficult, with the farm operation sometimes, you do need patience. You need to allow a little bit of time for harvesting the plots. And, you also need, need to be patient and understand that, if you get one year of data, you got one year of data, and you really need two or three to see if something is going to be consistent across your farm. But what I’d really like people to understand, both researchers and farmers, is that if you set up the plots properly— they don’t have to take a lot of time— but if you set the plots up properly, you can get exquisitely accurate data, and people kind of think, oh, the small plots is where they control everything. Well, the big long side by side plots is where you get really good data. And if you’re willing to do that for a couple of years, you can find very modest yield increases or decreases that you won’t see any other way. And, you also get a chance to see if it works on your soils, on your farm. So, yeah, it’s, you know, it’s a drag when you’re busy to have to stop and get the weigh wagon out and harvest these long strips, but if you can manage those couple hours, you get really good data.
Carol McFarland
So you’re a fan regardless of, like, researcher or farmer or whatever hat you’re wearing— strip trials, big long field scale scope trials.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
If you can do it. Yeah.
Carol McFarland
Here’s a fun one. What’s the most annoying thing about working with a researcher, Chris?
Chris Williams
Oh, that’s a good one. It’s okay. Nobody will be offended.
Chris Williams
I don’t know, I, I honestly don’t know how to answer that because I think the world of research is so intriguing. I think that the biggest thing for a farmer to keep in mind, because we like to, you know, when the harvest is ready, we like to go. Right? But when you’re working with the researcher, the research is only as good as the data you provide. Right? So for us we have to remind ourselves, let’s slow down. Let’s make sure the calibrations are right. Let’s make sure the instruments are warmed up. Let’s make sure everything’s right so that we’re providing good data. And you know, so what if it takes an extra fifteen minutes out of your day or something? The biggest thing is the impact that that data will have in future years once these guys work the magic.
Carol McFarland
So now we’re going to bounce this back to you guys. What’s the most annoying thing about working with a farmer?
Dr. Dan Long
To me, it’s the fact that I’m not allowed to get involved with the farming operations so that I can escape the, you know, the drudgery of the research. I think the research is very non-deterministic, whereas farming is, and but but that’s not a big deal. I think that the challenge has been that it’s difficult keeping pace with Chris’s farming schedule because data analysis and writing, which are the responsibilities of research, takes such a long time to complete. They progress at a much slower pace as opposed to farming. So it’s difficult just trying to keep up with Chris’s schedule so that we can meet his expectations.
Carol McFarland
Okay. Thanks Dan for that. I’m going to bounce over to Stewart. What’s the most annoying thing about working with farmers?
Dr. Stewart Wuest
I enjoy working with farmers of all kinds, but there definitely are personalities— some are more uptight about how much time they’re spending with you, but you know, I do also understand that, if if a scientist goes out to do an on-farm test and they don’t have a lot of experience, then you are watching them bumble around, sometimes doing things they don’t need to do or taking a lot of time, but just just having access to the farmers fields to make measurements, talking about, why they do what they do and why they care about what they care about. Those are just tremendously valuable. If you want to be an applied researcher.
Carol McFarland
You know that you just answered the next question. You just answered, “What’s the most fun thing about working with a farmer?” . Yeah, we were on the most annoying thing.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Okay. I’m sorry, I forgot. I work, I work with some really terrific, really terrific people, and, and I don’t have any of that that annoys me so much that I remember who they are.
Carol McFarland
Okay, well, in that case, we’ll forgive you. So. And, Dan, what’s your favorite part and what’s the most fun thing about working with farmers?
Dr. Dan Long
It’s learning about farming. It’s learning something that you didn’t, you didn’t learn in college or in school. And, I guess there’s an old saying that says that researchers have been to school, but they’re not educated in farming. And so what I, what I really enjoy is the fact that I learned something about their world that I, that I can take home. That I didn’t gain from reading a book or something like that.
Carol McFarland
Like how to make hand gestures around the kid.
Dr. Dan Long
Yeah, yeah. Learning and learning the practicality of work. And I’ve always admired farmers for their ingenuity and their resourcefulness. And I learn from people like that. I just observe it. That’s why I like being around farmers.
Carol McFarland
There’s a lot to learn. Alright, Chris, I’m gonna put you on the spot. What’s the most fun part of working with researchers?
Chris Williams
Oh, well, I think it’s really stretching our perception of what we can be done, and also quantifying the impact of what we do. I think sometimes, you know, we can get in the rut of, well, we’ve done it before and so it works or grandpa did it or the neighbor did it— and I think helping us stretch our imagination, I think that’s really one of the fun things about working with researchers.
Carol McFarland
Oh, thanks for that. That was really inspiring. Great. Well, we’ve reached the point in the podcast where I’m going to invite any of you to share final thoughts or things that are still lingering in your mind and about the project or about the work at large.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Something that I’ve learned as a researcher that I think farmers ought to know, and that is that if you if you want to leverage research, your direction in your rainfall zone on your soil, so the crops you want to grow, if you can work with researchers, be a little bit generous with them, patient with them, and providing them access to the tools they need to produce the data they need. You can really help move research along. And it can be right in your backyard.
Carol McFarland
I really appreciate that. I’d like to piggyback about that a little bit just from my, like, much, much smaller lens of experience than yours, Stewart. But I want to invite farmers to come and, like, talk to researchers, especially when we’re out at events and such there’s so many gains to be had when we like, actually really talk with each other and we’re not afraid to cross those boundaries. So, make friends with your local researchers.
Dr. Stewart Wuest
Not every relationship is going to work out, but you just need one or two to work out over time.
Carol McFarland
Yeah. Thanks.
Dr. Dan Long
So we’ve been working as well on an outreach effort that involves software development. So, the heel editor software has been around since two-thousand thirteen. It was developed by Harris and Columbia, Missouri, and we’re working with them to expand that software to incorporate protein data and yield data together. So that we can produce management maps, by arithmetically combining both layers of information. So we’ve been working, for the last two years and, and producing a new version of this yield editor software. And we’re coming up to the end of that, which we hope to engage, maybe a dozen producers in a workshop later this year in twenty-twenty five to share lessons learned from working with Chris on this project and then introduce them to mapping aspects and data editing aspects of these efforts.
Carol McFarland
Chris, do you have any final thoughts?
Chris Williams
You know, I think that you’ve really helped us do what the next part of the project is, is get the story out right, get other people interested in trying this approach. And so thanks for visiting with us today.
Carol McFarland
Thanks so much for having us out to the farm today, Chris. It’s been really a pleasure to visit with you all and hear about the great work you’re doing. Thanks for being on the podcast.
Chris Williams
Thank you!